{"id":3015,"date":"2025-01-24T15:01:57","date_gmt":"2025-01-24T15:01:57","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/boardgamewire.com\/?p=3015"},"modified":"2025-01-27T11:47:55","modified_gmt":"2025-01-27T11:47:55","slug":"we-cannot-work-without-each-other-the-white-castles-husband-and-wife-design-duo-isra-and-shei-on-working-as-as-team-design-pitfalls-and-which-games-impressed-them-in-2024","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/boardgamewire.com\/index.php\/2025\/01\/24\/we-cannot-work-without-each-other-the-white-castles-husband-and-wife-design-duo-isra-and-shei-on-working-as-as-team-design-pitfalls-and-which-games-impressed-them-in-2024\/","title":{"rendered":"“We cannot work without each other”: The White Castle’s husband and wife design duo Isra and Shei on creating as as team, design pitfalls, and which games impressed them in 2024"},"content":{"rendered":"\n

Husband and wife board game design team Sheila Santos and Israel Cendrero have been collaborating on their creations for almost a decade – and have sealed their status as notable eurogame architects in recent years with standout titles The Red Cathedral<\/a> and The White Castle<\/a>. The pair – who go by their board game design monikers Isra and Shei – sat down with BoardGameWire to talk about their journey into the industry, why working as a duo is essential for them, and the major error they see new designers making when pitching to publishers.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Hi Isra, Shei! Thanks so much for agreeing to chat with us about your design work, really great to be speaking with you. I guess a sensible place to start is: how did you both start off in board game design?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

As many many designers. We have been playing for a while and we thought that we could design a game! Should be easy right? We didn’t know what we were stepping into. We started with a bunch of mini dice in our hands saying “We can design a game that can use this thing…” and so we did. We persisted.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Your first published game was Aloha Pioha, in 2016, I believe? What was the reception for that, did you manage to sell many copies? And what were the big lessons you learned in creating that game?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

The reception was solely local, and only the first print run was sold across a couple of years. The publisher is small and their reach by then was only in Spain. But for us was a game changer. We were about to quit designing games, after two years showing games to publishers and not getting published by anyone, was super discouraging. But they arranged a prototype contest with the prize of being published… and we won! So we persisted a bit more in designing and here we are. For us, the big lesson was: Don’t quit until you make it!<\/p>\n\n\n\n

What do you think was different about Aloha Piona, that made it stand out after a couple of years unsuccessfully pitching games. Was it the design itself, or had you just become better pitchers – or something else?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Oh that’s easy, we just won a contest that has as prize being published! [laughs]. The games that were published that same year, was a mix of being already known in the industry in Spain, and winning that contest.  We were about to quit!<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Oh wow – I’m glad you didn’t quit! Clearly you kept on designing – what kind of impetus did getting that first game published give you, and how did you approach getting your next game designed and published?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Instead of the impetus, let us talk a bit about the opposite, what made us stop completely. Since nobody wanted to publish our games, we thought “Oh, c’mon, if everybody says that this is good, why not try by ourselves?” So we were starting the creation of a small publisher and a kickstarter campaign. We even asked for quotes! We had some illustrations (the artist is a friend of ours), even the final product envisioned… so we were about to embark on that adventure when we won the contest and the game was published shortly after.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

So the impetus that the published games gave us was basically a pat on the back telling us “Keep going, looks like you know what you’re doing and you’re not bad at it”. And that made us stop and think “What do we love the most in this hobby apart from playing? Designing. Not accounting, quoting, logistics, taxes etc etc. We love to design.”  So that was what we did, just keep designing whatever we thought that was fun to do, but this time paying more attention in production terms, since we had some knowledge. It is always a good thing knowing if your game is going to cost $20 or $50. You cannot afford to do certain things for a $20 game like having 200 cards with different artwork on them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Our publishers always tell us that we should not pay attention to that, but these kinds of boundaries make us better designers.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

That’s very interesting – and feels like it really shows through with a game like The White Castle, which is beautifully produced, but fits in a small box and has a relatively low price point. Was that coincidence, or were you actively involved from the outset in trying to design a ‘small box’ eurogame?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

The story comes back to Spiel 2019 after signing The Red Cathedral with Devir. That game was supposed to be our BIG game finally (all of our previous games were small-box sized). But then, our main editor at Devir, David Esbr\u00ed, showed us the mock up box for The Red Cathedral, in the box of Kare-Kare. We were more lor less devastated because we thought that it was impossible to fit everything there, and the game will go under radar because it won’t be a big release. But then the magic happened. The Red Cathedral was widely praised about ‘the meaty-game in a small box’. We were wrong, and they were right. That vision from our editor made the perfect combination of a big game in a small box. So with the White Castle, we just tried to get it done again with the starting point of having that box size limitation.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

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Isra and Shei’s design The Red Cathedral, published by Devir<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n

How do the pair of you operate as a design duo? Are you workshopping initial ideas together, or do you each bring more established designs to each other and then adapt them as a pair? Or something else?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

We basically do everything together. We are a marriage (and now parents) but before everything else, we were best friends. So when we want to design, we just design. And that can happen when we’re cooking. When we’re on a walk with the kid. When we’re cleaning the house… whenever we think that is a good moment to exchange some ideas. We normally sat down and discuss how the game should be, how the values must apply the mechanics, how the feeling should match the turn you are doing and so. And when we have a notebook full of stuff, we start to put down all of those ideas into cards, wooden pieces and boards.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

We design 50-50. Maybe one of us lead a bit more how the game should be but at the end, is an evenly shared work. Maybe one can think that this is the ideal scenario for a creative couple, but it’s not that easy. When you create something alone, you only have to agree with yourself. When you work as a couple, all the ideas and decisions are having to be agreed on both sides.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

That’s true – but I expect there are also benefits to you both always having a design partner to bounce ideas off? Can you think of any particular instances where designing as a pair has grown one of your game in ways that might not have happened if it was an individual design?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

We guess that the only downside of it, it’s to agree with every decision. But eventually this leads to a better game, that is basically what every designer pursues. The funny thing about us is: we cannot work without each other. Every time we tried to start individually anything, it ended up in a drawer or changed completely. We are two, but in the end we’re a single unit.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

You’re probably best known for mid-weight euros – Red Cathedral, The White Castle, recent release Flatiron. But you’ve put out a clutch of lighter games too – Walkie Talkie, Keyframes, Buttonshy game Fliptricks. Do you see yourselves continuing to mix designing mid-weight euros and lighter creations, or do you think you’ll increasingly focus on eg. the euros. Why?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Because we still love to design whatever pops in our minds. It’s true that our smaller designs aren’t that known, but we do have a lot of fun designing them. And those games fulfil our prime principle: We’re having to have fun with it. So if any idea looks fun enough to try, we’ll go for it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

What have you got on your design slate currently – how many Llama Dice games can we expect in 2025, and what can you tell us about them?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

In 2025 we were about to have no new games in the market, but Devir asked us for the duel version of The White Castle… and we did it! We’re currently helping the publisher in the rulebook\/graphic part and it will be amazing. We managed to create another White Castle, with White Castle feeling, but a completely different game for two players. Cannot wait to see the players enjoying it!<\/p>\n\n\n\n

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The White Castle — Photo Credit: Sheila Santos<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n

Your last few mid-weight euros have been built around rondel and contract fulfillment in Red Cathedral, dice drafting and worker placement in The White Castle, and tableau building – and building building! – in Flatiron. Are you revisiting those mechanisms in the designs you’re working on currently, dabbling with other ideas, or a mix of the two?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

We always try to get some bits from our other games, but we always end up creating a new thing. We don’t like to repeat ourselves and when we try to use a mechanic that we already use, we always think “I did this before, this is not new” and rework everything, so we don’t do it anymore [laughs].<\/strong> Maybe in the future we will use a variation of some of our mechanics, but as long as we have new ideas, we’ll keep creating new ones.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

What advice would you give to new designers looking to get their games picked up by publishers in 2025? What are your top tips in terms of approaching and being prepared to pitch to publishers, and what pitfalls do new designers face?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

The best advice nobody can give is, “Play games as much as you can. Play games even if they’re not your type, you will always learn something”.\u00a0 The main pitfall we see in new designers (even we did back then) is to believe that your game will be the next best game ever. Be humble when pitching to publishers and never never never say “My game is so good!” because that’s quite a red flag (even if your game is amazing, it’s not up to you to say so). <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Publishers are people, so treat them like that. A good friend of us told us a sentence that is true every time: “Kindness had opened more doors than keys”. So, if they’re going to approach publishers, just be kind and send them a sell sheet beforehand. If they don’t like your game or they’re not interested, nobody will waste their time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Finally, what was the most impressive design from another designer that you played in 2024, and why?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

We don’t want to pick only one, so we’re going to pick three:<\/p>\n\n\n\n